Can we finally define who a “Meteorologist” is?!

28   Nov ,  2011 | 114
comments

I think we need to have a serious discussion in this country about defining who a meteorologist is and why anyone can blindly use the term.   This post is probably going to offend a few people…including some of my friends who are ‘meteorologists’ in the TV business.  This conversation happens all the time in the meteorology community…many times behind closed doors.  I have seen this topic bounce around the Internet a couple of times…but it’s time to set the record straight…once and for all.

Many of the “meteorologists” that you see on TV have an online degree (or certificate) from Mississippi State University.  The TV business defines this as having “meteorological certification”.   Mississippi state University offers an online broadcast meteorology course (ie certificate) to any high school graduate over a 3 year period.

Let’s be honest…this is not Mississippi State’s fault.  They are catering to a niche market.  Let’s also state a fact:

1) Mississippi State does have an on-campus 4 year B.S. and M.S. degree in Meteorology.

And it’s fine (although not recommended) for many TV professionals that need a quick and dirty way to gain some credibility in weather by completing an online meteorology course.

But here’s what is not fine:  TV professionals who receive an online broadcast meteorology certificate from Mississippi State should not be allowed to call themselves a “meteorologist”…period.

Why?  Mississippi State’s broadcast meteorology certificate is not even remotely close to the level of rigorous coursework required at a 4 year accredited university for Atmospheric Science or Meteorology.   At these accredited universities, meteorologists are required to take calculus, physics, atmospheric dynamics, thermodynamics, etc etc.  Only after the completion of this program, they can call themselves a meteorologist.

This is the only loophole I can think of on the planet where you can call yourself the same professional name by taking an accelerated online course that does not have the same rigorous coursework as an accredited university.   Can you think of any other examples?

It’s quite a shame, actually.  I think there are 2 main problems here:

1) There is no enforcement of who can use the term “meteorologist’ and

2) The TV industry is dying for ratings…so they’ll put whoever looks good to attract attention…and that includes many non-meteorologists.

And the NWA (National Weather Association) actually gives a TV seal of approval to these folks…I think it’s wrong!  Thankfully, the AMS (American Meteorological Society) has changed their rules to give their seal of approval only to folks who have taken more rigorous coursework.  I think the NWA should do the same.  Meteorologists are real scientists.   We are putting scientists in the same league with folks who generally regurgitate the NWS forecasts, for the most part do not  understand how to analyze weather models,  and have a 3 year online certificate.  It’s wrong, and this needs to change!

Weather affects people’s lives and is a serious business.  We need to clearly separate by name who has a professional degree in meteorology and who doesn’t.  There are some of you TV weather folks with a broadcast certificate that are actually great at communicating the weather…but it’s unfair to put a label on something that you are not.

So let’s talk about solutions….

Let’s define a meteorologist:  A meteorologist is one who graduates from a 4 year accredited university that has completed all coursework in Atmospheric Science or Meteorology.    Another way to define it could be a combination of pertinent meteorological education+experience.  The AMS does a better job explaining this…so I’ll leave that in the hands of the experts.

Let’s define the Broadcast Meteorology Certificate:  Anyone who completes the Mississippi State online broadcast meteorology course (or any other distance learning online meteorology course) should refer to themselves as a “Weathercaster” on-air.   Give credit where credit is due.  I think it would also be beneficial if Mississippi State stated in their program that their broadcast meteorology certificate is an online “weathercaster” program.   If they want to become a meteorologist, they can complete the BS degree on their campus.

Let’s talk about Enforcement:  My friends at the AMS need to write some rules, and enforce them.  I’ve read that legally anyone can call themselves a meteorologist. If the AMS cannot legally enforce this..then how do we make meteorologist a “legal” definition like a “lawyer” or “doctor”? Someone please enlighten me.   Why are we not taking our degree seriously?

Would you want your police officer to have had their training online…or would you rather they have proper training at the Police Academy.  Maybe it’s not the best analogy…but meteorologists should be held to the same standard.   Weather affects people’s lives and meteorologists can save and protect people too.

I’m not blaming all TV weathercasters…there are a good portion of you out there that do have a 4 year degree and you have the right to call yourself a meteorologist.    I just think it makes sense to give credit where credit is due.   Everyday viewers and the scientific community  have a right to know who is a “meteorologist” and who is a “weathercaster”.

Bottom line, if we want meteorology to be taken seriously, we should take the term “meteorologist” seriously too.

Please let your voice be heard…Am I being too harsh? Or is this justified?  (Photo credit: 123rf)

Posted by: AJ · Categories: Fixing Meteorology, Hot Topics · Labels: , , , , , , , , , , , , ,

Posted by AJ on November 28, 2011

  • Weathermatt

    Wow well said AJ. Glad you’re bringing up this topic, it needs to be out there! I couldn’t agree more and hope that there is some enforcement of this in the near future!

  • http://www.linkedin.com/pub/doug-meyers/37/ba2/ab8 Doug

    I definitely think this is hurting in the TV business. I just graduated this summer from University of Nebraska-Lincoln and I’m still trying to find a job. I don’t think news directors know the difference, which is a shame. If there are two people applying for a job, one with experience but has a weathercaster degree from Misssissppi State or someone like me that’s just out of college that has an actual meteorology degree, news directors need to choose the meteorologist every time even though they may not have experience. We sacrificed 4 years (or 6 if you’re like me) to get that degree and pursue a dream job.

    • Rebecca Miller

      And you paid about 10 times as much for your degree, Doug. When you apply for jobs, try to educate the news directors.

  • Tony

    Amen! I’m all for this, however the problem is, there’s no legal definition to a “meteorologist”. There would have to be a law passed stating that one could not use the title without a specific list of criteria….It wont happen anytime soon, because here is a few issues you’ll have to deal with that work against your case:

    * Mississippi State gives their blessing for their online certificate alumni to use the term after 2 years of on-air experience….So for starters, the law would have to include specific classes and hours of training, since the University is all for “giving the title” to their online alumni…

    * TV stations are hardcore against it because they’d much rather hire a non-met at a cheaper price or invest their money in an attractive prep to gain ratings rather than a geeky nerd…Any politician supporting such a measure that would hurt (in tv management’s viewpoint) the station in such a big way, would likely catch the wrath of the media when trying to run for re-election…These candidates rely on the news media to get elected/re-elected….They’d be very wise to vote against any measures related to this, if they want to keep a decent relationship with the media.

    * Weather forecasting is still too error prone for the real professionals to establish a high rate of credibility. There’s still going to be a lot of forecast screw ups by a forecaster, no matter the amount of training they’ve had….and in some cases, there’s non-degreed forecasters that can actually forecast better than many degreed ones. Some with degrees are downright horrible forecasters because they’ve either forgotten what they learned in meteorology school 35 years ago or they just don’t have enough passion in their career to take the time to actually study the data…You’re going to have a hard time proving that the non-degree folks are “dangerous” when there’s so many errors among the degreed experts and research could be done to prove certain non-degree forecasters are more accurate than the degreed ones.

    * I’d estimate that 95% of the general public could not give a rat’s behind who gets to call themselves a meteorologist…In their minds, all weather forecasters are a waste of human life and do not know their butts from a hole in the ground.

    Because of these reasons, I don’t think there’s any chance of getting a legal definition anytime soon.

    My personal view is that there does need to be a legal definition to a meteorologist, but I also don’t necessarily believe it should be based on one’s past coursework….Instead, I think it should be based on one’s present knowledge and abilities through a rigorous test required to be taken once every few years…The test should include very in-depth questions on meteorology, as well as a number of simulated forecasts to make…This way a non-degreed individual that has studied on their own enough to pass the most complex atmospheric physics questions and forecasting simulations would be able to claim the title based on their adequate knowledge and ability…Meanwhile, someone with the degree could lose the ability to use the “meteorologist” title, should they get slack and forget their weather knowledge….but, that’ll never happen!

    • Matt Crowther

      The biggest problem with the educational system as regards to meteorology is that almost all of the schools that have a BS or higher degree in meteorology are “one size fits all”- that is the same amount of higher level calculus and physics are required for everyone, regardless of their interests and future career path. So someone like myself, who only has an interest in operational forecasting, is forced to take the exact same coursework as the person that wishes to go into teaching or research. I like what my good friend Patrick has posted- there really needs to be a two or even three track approach to getting a degree, with the math and physics kept to a minimum in the track for forecasters, replaced by a lot of more practical synoptic type courses with forecasting applications. This also applies to any re-certification process, there needs to be one for the researcher types and one for forecasters. At TWC, for a long time we had to take a test yearly called the MSP for Meteorological Skills Profile- nary an equation to be found but a lot of case study type questions and other practical stuff relevant to the actual task of what we do at TWC.

  • Rdale

    No, there would have to be 50 laws. Those would be state certifications. Remember the hubbub when someone in Texas considered it? Yeah, that died quickly.

    Regardless of the legal / ethical / moral issues – I’ll add on to Tony’s story. People don’t care.

    I never had an AMS/NWA seal during my 12 years, and do you know how many noticed? 1. One time a new TD asked if I should have a seal next to my name.

    The viewers would never know the difference if the tagline said “Weathercaster” “Meteorologist” or “Chief Meteorologist.” They trust people based on looks and personality, and then throw in a little more weight if they watched them during a big event and the meteorologist/weathercaster did well. I watched a well known met streaming out of OKC during the last event and he didn’t know radar interpretation any better than he could interpret results of a Rorschach test. Yet he would meet the qualifications of a “licensed” meteorologist, and even wrote a book.

    Making 50 laws won’t change anything.

  • Mark

    Valid point. When I first broke into the “business” 30 years ago, I started out in TV shortly after getting my BSAg in Atmospheric Science at the University of Missouri-Columbia. With the degree, I was proudly calling myself a meteorologist, yet went up against several competitors who did the same with little or no meteorological training. The only sort of “official” means we had, then and now, of differentiating between those with background and those without are the AMS and NWA seals of approval. These were heavily based on on-air presentation content. Today, the AMS Seal of Approval program has been replaced by the CBM (Certified Broadcast Meteorologist) program. The AMS also has a CCM (Certified Consulting Meteorologist) program. Both require extensive testing.

    Today, a “meteorologist” with a degree does a wide variety of important work, from broadcasting, air pollution dispersion modeling, climatology, flood forecasting, hurricane research, micro-meteorological research, climate change research, to operational forecasting, and that list is far from complete. This list implies any certification program needs to be quite expansive to include all relevant disciplines.

  • Mark

    AJ, I certainly understand your disdain toward broadcast (especially TV) entities who call their weathercaster a meteorologist, regardless of background. Some of the posters below make interesting points. I agree there should be some proven technical competency associated with the term, rather than just a degree. Though a degree should be a prerequisite.

    However, much of your disdain is aimed at the Mississippi State shortcut. To me, this was and is a valuable service to the broadcast community. It at least provides the minimally qualified with SOME semblance of educational background. You also seem to draw a difference between being on campus pursuing the degree and getting it on-line. For most of the classes, I would challenge there is not much difference, as the one-on-one support you may get on campus is minimal a difficult to attain, and on-line coursework can be highly effective.

    The bottom line, there is little concern in the public over who can and cannot use the term on-air to warrant state-by-state or federal legislation. Perhaps the FCC could get involved, but I doubt that agency would care much about the issue. After all, the term meteorologist is not defined as one with a degree about meteorology, but rather one who studies the weather or the science dealing with the atmosphere and its physical processes. In a minimal sense, this includes the Mississippi State folks and quite a few weather nerds who don’t have the resources to get a degree, but who may understand the physical and mathematical differences between the NAM, the GFS, and the ECMWF. Would the FCC, the only regulating agency with enough punch to enforce term usage, have enough public demand or outcry to warrant enforcement?

    I personally believe TV promotion of their own can help raise the bar. If a station promotes a non-degreed meteorologist, a competitor with a degreed meteorologist will be quick to point out the difference. And if they think the public will care, they will promote a 4-year (or graduate) degree against a competitor’s 2-year certificate quickly, if they think it will make any dent at all in the ratings. In this business, ratings points=$$$.

    • Anonymous

      Hey Mark…thanks for your comments! I think the reason this topic comes up over and over again in the weather community is because people DO care. I can tell you that meteorologists who complete a 4 year degree care…because it’s a tough degree to achieve.

      It’s also why the AMS changed their requirements to get the seal….if people didn’t care, then they wouldn’t have done this. I keep hearing that people “don’t care” so let’s drop it….but I think the first step that needs to happen is WE need to start caring and begin making this a priority.

      I agree with you…the degree should be a prerequisite. The degree should also be a prerequisite to use the name “meteorologist” too. That’s my point.

      And if it’s legal for ANYONE to call themselves a meteorologist…don’t you think there’s something wrong?

    • Rebecca Miller

      Mark, I have friends who went through the full 4 year program at Miss State and are incensed that their college is offering this short-cut to basically anyone. The coursework, according to them, is NOT the same, the tuition to get the certificate is a fraction of the cost, and the degreed mets are now having to compete for jobs with people from the same university who have these certificates, and bosses aren’t understanding the difference.

      • Anonymous

        This is a great perspective Rebecca…I’m glad you brought this up. It’s interesting to note that there is an internal conflict within Mississippi State too…and it makes complete sense. If someone wants to get a B.S. in Meteorology but go into broadcast meteorology…what incentive do they have to spend 4 times as much money if the industry treats them the same way as the broadcast certificate?

  • Rolland

    I understand the frustration with the TV industry’s view of meteorology, but I wonder how would you classify a military “meteorologist”. Often military meteorologists are lumped in with government meteorological services but they are generally not considered the be qualified to do the job outside of the military since they don’t have four year degrees. Usually the intial training for military meteorologists condenses 56 semester hours of straight meteorology into 9 months and follow on training occurrs over the next year which varies between the Air Force, Navy,and Marine Corps. Personally, I feel there is a flaw in the defintion presented above or what is required to be a meteorologist.

    • Anonymous

      That’s a great point Rolland. It’s why I mentioned the AMS does a better job of defining what a meteorologist is. Does your training including Atmospheric dynamics?

  • Baroclinic

    In full agreement. Media drives what people perceive to be “meteorologists”, and like many other things in media, the truth becomes distorted with time. Al Roker often being called the “most popular meteorologist” in the United States is one example of this joke. Personally I have always called the TV folks weathercasters since it is what most are (“most” since some do indeed have full meteorology degrees). It isn’t meant to be demeaning in any way, but why should they be called meteorologists if they aren’t one?

    • Rebecca (Becky) Miller

      In Al’s defense, he doesn’t claim to have a degree and never has.

  • Jdmac

    I would be a strong supporter of state licensing similar to what engineers must adhere to

  • http://www.linkedin.com/in/llrasmussen Raz

    Interesting conversation. It does seem that “meteorologist” is used very loosely in broadcast media. But shouldn’t there be a distinction between a weathercaster with a certificate (and hence some actual courses in meteorology) and one without? “Weathercaster” really only means someone who delivers the weather news.

    My situation is ambiguous too. I have a PhD in oceanography and am trying to do a career shift in the applied meteorology direction. I realized I am only a few courses short of the AMS and US govt meteorologist standards, so I am taking those now. But I still won’t have an actual degree in Meteorology or Atmospheric Sciences. (Although my department was “Earth, Atmosphere and Planetary Sciences”, my degree says Oceanography.) But it seems to be pretty understood that there is a lot of overlap in ocean, climate & atmospheric sciences.

  • Anonymous

    @Raz, thanks for the comment! I don’t believe there are too many weather folks on TV where the “weathercaster” has no meteorology coursework at all. I’m starting to see the trend where meteorologists are playing reporters…but not reporters playing meteorologists. Correct me if I’m wrong? In my opinion, Weathercaster would be the baseline term…and then if they want to differentiate themselves they can get the NWA or AMS seals of approval. That’s my thought at least….

    There is definitely a lot of overlap with oceanography and I’m sure the meteorological organizations would count a lot of your coursework that is similar to a “meteorologist”.

    • http://www.linkedin.com/in/llrasmussen Raz

      I’m trying to think of any other sciences where someone would use the title “whatever-ist” without having a degree, or even has a need to. You certainly don’t see people calling themselves chemists, or physicists, or oceanographers, although “engineer” can be a bit ambiguous. But then these fields don’t generally have positions where a formal education is not an absolute necessity. There have been oceanographers in the early days who never had advanced degrees, and became professors, but those days are definitely over.

      Perhaps a B.S. in meteorology or atmos science should include an optional “Professional Meteorologist” license, kind of like a P.E. in engineering. But the organization who oversees those exams are actually connected to state licensing boards.

      The AMS Certified Consulting Meteorologist program seems fairly rigorous in its requirements, but does not seem to be utilized much, perhaps because of the “consulting” focus? It might be used more if it was called “AMS Professional Meteorologist” or similar. “Consulting” seems to imply something that is done on the side.

  • Baroclinic

    The arguments brought up here by AJ are legitimate, and there are actual problems and much public confusion surrounding the differences between on-air weathercasters and meteorologists/trained forecasters in general. The negatives aspects are actually a lot more significant that they may initially seem, especially when we are dealing with public safety.There are also negative consequences that may not at all seem related including things such as negative impacts to meteorological research and funding. There is NO problem, IMO, in having a more defined definition of a meteorologist.

  • Baroclinic

    I do think there is value to having more rigorous definitions/standards. Old habits and ideas die hard, but that isn’t a reason to not try changing public perception about what the profession really is. Like I commented above, it can all be tied back to discussions of public safety, funding and research, job applicants and their expectations of the industry, etc. I will also add there are legitimate and direct benefits to having more strict AMS/NWA TV certifications/seals both for the general public and the applicants in the field. I personally see that is a win/win.

  • Anonymous

    @Baroclinic…I agree with you completely! Great comment! Yea the main point to take home from my post is really what @Baroclinic Instability is reiterating. Just have a more rigorous definition of what the term “meteorologist” is….I don’t think it’s fair that anyone can call themselves a meteorologist…we are the only science major where this happens….so the goal is to change the public perception that is currently out there and take the degree seriously. I’ve heard the excuse that “no one cares” before….but I think enough people do…and this topic has been talked about over and over but perhaps this time we can change a few things!

  • Rebecca Miller

    AJ, I agree with you 100%. I have a full four year degree in atmospheric physics/meteorology, and it amazes me that so many television bosses simply don’t care about the difference between an actual degree and a broadcast certificate.

    In addition to working in television, I taught meteorology students how to develop broadcast skills; it’s clear many cannot do that. Many degreed meteorologists simply don’t WANT to go into tv.

    Conversely, many reporters do a very nice job presenting weather. But you are right: tv weather reporters are no more meteorologists than health reporters are physicians.

    The AMS has now re-defined the word “meteorologist” to include anyone on tv presenting weather. Newer “CBM” seals are given to those without degrees if you already have an AMS seal if you pass a test. If you do not have an original AMS seal, you MUST have a met degree….so all those non=-degreed AMS holders can now hold a CBM. When did seals become more important than degrees?

    You must also take into consideration those in the armed services that have full four year degrees in physics or computer science, etc., who were sent back to school to pick up the met courses. Technically, they do not have the full 4 year degree, but they know their weather.

    Licensing was attempted in Texas but was shut down. More people are on tv presenting weather without degrees than with…and the AMS does not support those with degrees any more than they support those with broadcast certificates. It’s a losing battle.

    At least a person with a broadcast certificate in meteorology cannot get a job as a meteorologist anywhere outside of the broadcast industry, like the weather service, the airlines, NASA, etc.

    • Anonymous

      Hey Rebecca, thanks for your comment! I agree with you completely on everything that you’ve said. When did seals become more important than degrees? Great question.

      And since you’ve been in TV for quite some time….was just wondering what the perception of other degreed meteorologists on TV are…do they care about this topic?

      Any ideas on how we can get this post in front of some News Directors and get their opinion? Are they part of any group on LinkedIn or some other source? I think a lot of people could get some great perspective.

      Thanks!

      AJ

      • Becky Miller

        Hi AJ,
        Every single degreed meteorologist I have ever met (and I’ve met a LOT, in tv and not in tv), is very upset over the broadcast certificate. What’s even worse, the broadcast certificate holders are now claiming this is a “masters degree” in meteorology. After all, they got the certification after they got a bachelors degree in something else, and in their minds, any post graduate work = master’s degree. It’s a flat out lie, but no one even checks. Miss State doesn’t even enforce it. So on a resume, you see a potential candidate with a BS degree in meteorology from an accredited university up against someone claiming a “masters” degree from Miss State, and who appears to be more educated? The AMS has done those of us with degrees a dire disservice. I am no longer even a member. They don’t support me, so I cannot support them.
        I can tell you that the public DOES care who has a degree. A tv station will never promote their meteorologist as having a degree, though, because one day, they may have to employ someone as a weathercaster who does not have a degree. Frankly, there aren’t enough degreed meteorologists willing to do tv work. There are more people wanting to be on tv than there are scientists wanting to do it. A tv station can’t really promote one member of their team and not the others, so we will forever be lumped together. The difference will be apparent when there is severe weather threatening an area.
        I can also tell you that news directors just don’t care. I’ve talked to many of them, and they want someone who looks good, sounds good, appears competent and can draw viewers. If that person has an education, that’s better. If they don’t but sound like they do, that’s good enough. The funny thing is that most news directors insist their reporters and news anchors have degrees in something related to news! Many news directors give tests to potential anchors and reporters: world news, politics, geography, pop culture, etc. But with weather, they don’t know anything about it, themselves, so it’s a “throw away” position. They will argue that most days aren’t severe weather days, so who cares if the presenter is degreed? You won’t change their minds on this, ever. In Texas, we tried. I was invited to join a 20 person panel group (statewide) that tried to enact a licensing program. I was only one of 5 media people involved, too….others were from other realms of meteorology (including government) that are just sick over people portraying themselves as something they are not.
        (Also, on a side note, I have no idea why my image doesn’t appear when I post! I dislike “hiding”, and I”m not trying to…:)

        • Anonymous

          Yea I definitely agree Rebecca! News Directors just want one thing…ratings! You’re absolutely right…they could care less if the meteorologist is “degreed” or not. I’m actually shocked you can say you have a “Masters” in Meteorology from the Broadcast certificate….where is the enforcement…wow!?

          I honestly feel the only way this can change is if there is a standard definition for the term “meteorologist” that is put into law that combines perhaps certain coursework with experience or a BS degree. Otherwise we’ll be stuck with the status quo.

          P.S. Not sure why your pic is not working…sorry! Let me see if there’s a way to make that happen.

        • Patrick Kerrin

          BMP holders are now claiming this is a “masters degree” in Meteorology?

          As BMPer, I would call that blatantly unethical – and just sad!

        • Dan Henry

          Amen Rebecca. I think your comments are spot on. I would add that there are some TV Mets who are not degreed but have done a great deal to educate themselves on the science. I think in many of these cases these are people who discovered their passion for weather later in life, and simply don’t have time to go back to school to earn a 4-year Degree. That said, I think there are many in our profession who really don’t care at all about weather. They don’t share the passion for it that we do and it shows on the air. TV is just a vehicle to get their face on the air and to pay the bills. But as you said, their true colors will show during big weather events, especially in active weather markets. Viewers aren’t dumb. They know who to turn to when weather becomes deadly serious. That’s when folks like us can feel a little vindicated.

          Good discussion!

          Thanks,
          Dan Henry

        • Steve

          I have a bad habit of going to web sites and checking out the bios of TV “meteorologists” to see where they went to school and what their degree really is in.

  • Dave Seibert

    I think your insight to weather is a bit limited. I have been in the weather business for over 35 years observing and forecasting terminal weather. I have hand plotted and analyzed hundreds of SFC and UA products, putting pencil to paper where the rubber meets the road forecasting site specific weather which is just as critical if not more critical and exact than normal city or area forecasts. I have also done this while working in a tent in conditions most could not imagine. I “earned” my credentials in the USAF and I call myself a Meteorologist if asked because I make a living by studying meteorology! I would take the word of any weather forecaster trained in the USAF system over most that of those who have a 4 year degree because I know they have been put to the test.

    Good luck with you quest!

  • Anonymous

    @ Dave: Thanks for your perspective. A little harsh to judge my weather insight over one post…but I’ll let that slide. I have nothing against the USAF system and I think you guys definitely do get your hands dirty. The main point of this article is to say that there needs to be a standard definition of a meteorologist. You’re an example where experience and some of your USAF coursework may very much indeed certify you to say you’re a meteorologist. All I’m saying is I want the term “meteorologist” to be of distinction. My simple definition was the 4 year degree…but I’m sure if the AMS or another body comes up with one they’ll include experience and coursework combined. Thanks again for your perspective.

    AJ

  • Bob

    In Canada we now have a certification for professional meteorologist. Check out http://www.eco.ca/meteorology to get the definitions used. With time, the desire is to have these certifications carry legal weight.

  • Anonymous

    Thanks for sharing this Bob. I think this is very intriguing! National certification for meteorologist sounds interesting…I’d love to hear what mets in Canada think about this program. What about those that do not have a degree but tons of meteorology experience? (ie Military)

    It is interesting to note that Canada does consider “broadcasting” within this professional certification. Secondly, I think the answer to why Canada needs national certification for meteorologists is right on! I’ve posted both below directly from the eco.ca website.

    Operational Meteorologist

    Professionals in this area are involved in the development of weather forecasts for various users and distribution mediums. Operational meteorologists may work in a variety of industries such as broadcasting, government or aviation. These professionals work in data interpretation, forecast development, and the communication of meteorological information and forecast products.

    2. Why do we need national certification for meteorologists?

    The meteorological sector is growing dramatically and the range of meteorological applications is expanding from weather services into alternative energy, air quality, and environmental services. The impact of meteorological events on transportation, infrastructure, energy, public safety and industry is becoming more intense. Standardized certification ensures that recognized skills and qualifications for those providing such critical advice is met. Professional certification separates the real experts from the self-proclaimed ones by ensuring that minimum proven standards of performance have been satisfied.

  • Dave

    In principle you have a good point, but I think it would be hard to have a common agreement. I have an MS in Psychology but don’t call myself a psychologist..go figure… I do teach it though part time. YEt most Psychologist say you have to have a PhD to be “called” a Psychologist…(yet I study psychology more than weather!) Sometimes I think we put to much into titles…goes both ways, employers and employees… whatever happened to tests, and merit, and firing me after a 90 day probation if I don’t meet your expectations!
    My military training has knocked me out of jobs because I didn’t have a degree. Yeah I could have gotten one but not when the schools would not recognize my military training and credit me for it! Even when an old USAF General took control of NWS it was still looking down on us “met techs”
    Call me what you like…just don’t call me late for dinner!

    Good luck!

  • Anonymous

    I think you all bring up great points and perspectives. Experience is something that definitely should be on the table (in addition to Education) when considering who a “meteorologist” really is. Trust me, I know there are smarter people out there who dont’ have degrees in Meteorology than degreed meteorologists…but I just feel there needs to be a standard.

    Don’t you find it a bit odd that anyone in the world can call themselves a meteorologist. For example, if your next door neighbor is fascinated by weather (has no training whatsoever) and he has a weather station at home…he can legally claim he is a “meteorologist.” It’s just odd that we’re the only science major on the planet that runs into this issue.

  • http://www.yourweatherblog.com Dave Gorham

    I learned long ago that TV ratings drive the “show,” while the actual forecast takes a backseat. If a non-meteorologist gets the ratings, then the TV station doesn’t care about education, fancy seals or degrees. When I left my on-air position, I was replaced by a broadcast journalism major and his lower third said “Meteorologist” just like mine (to be fair, the station placed him in that position and he got out of it as soon as he could). Unfortunately it’s the system that works as viewers will readily identify with a pretty smile and charming personality, while not doing their own research to determine who has the real credentials (and therefore, who to watch and not watch).

    It’s like everything else: If you don’t like the burgers at McDonald’s, don’t buy the burgers at McDonald’s. But McDonald’s does a bang-up business selling average-at-best burgers because they make it so darn easy for the consumer to feel welcome and satisfied. TV stations do the same thing.

    I doubt very much the AMS wants to barge into the television stations – certainly not their industry or area of expertise – and tell them who they can and cannot employ. Instead, the station itself should decide to rise above the fray and select only the most qualified candidates. It should also be up to the viewer (consumer, actually) to insist on only the most qualified meteorologist.

    Lastly, I’ll add that if you want your post as well as meteorology to be taken more seriously, you should probably avoid phrases like, “There are a good chunk of you out there…”

  • Anonymous

    Hey Dave..fair point on the “chunk”…I could have worded that better. Just stating that there are a lot of folks in TV that do have a degree a meteorology…

    And this post is really not about the AMS barging into TV stations and telling them who they can or cannot employ. I don’t really have a problem with who is degreed and who is not degreed on air. Obviously there are many folks who are not degreed can walk, talk, and chew gum better than degreed meteorologists. That’s not the point.

    My concern is there is no enforcement from the weather side that anyone can blindly use the term “meteorologist”… after a 2 year online course anyone can claim they have a “Master’s Degree” in meteorology and are a ‘meteorologist’ and it’s okay? I know that TV is entertainment..but it’s also a serious business that does affect people’s live and property…It’s fine that people are on TV without a degree in meteorology….but what’s wrong with having them say they are “weathercasters”? Just curious?

    And to say again…the reason for my post is about “enforcement” and having a standard so the term “meteorologist” isn’t just thrown around. Meteorologists are real scientists.

    • http://www.yourweatherblog.com Dave Gorham

      Then I’m confused, AJ. This seems to be about TV “meteorologists” calling themselves “Meteorologist” whether they are degreed or not, yes? You want enforcement from within the field of meteorology, yet you don’t want the AMS involved. If not the AMS, then who will be the “enforcer” – the individual meteorologist? A state licensing board, perhaps?

      No doubt TV weather is a serious business, but if your argument is that you don’t have a problem with the TV side, but rather that enforcement should come from the weather side, then there must be some sort of enforcing agency? No currently employed on-air weather person is going to stop calling himself or herself a meteorologist unless somebody makes them stop – there’s just too much money involved.

      Again, I’ll revert back to my “free market” system that says if you don’t like a particular “meteorologist” because of a lack of credentials, don’t watch that station – and write the station to tell them why you choose not to watch. It’s all about the money – TV stations will pay as little or as much as they deem necessary to achieve their goals. If a station realizes that the “other” station with the properly degreed meteorologists is getting all the ratings, then they too will hire properly degreed meteorologists.

      • Anonymous

        Hi Dave…I agree with you that nobody is going to stop calling themselves a meteorologist unless somebody makes them stop. I think the AMS or some government body should enforce this. Geologists for example are enforced by each state. Meteorologists are not enforced at all. None. And that’s why it would be great to see what the AMS can legally do…and what the best option is out there.

        I’m all for the free market system. Sure if you don’t like something, you dont’ have to watch or read it. And yes in TV it’s all about ratings for the News Director…I definitely get that. But that doesn’t mean that that a weathercaster has the right to say they have scientific credentials. And the public generally doesn’t know better because it’s not communicated to them that these 2 year courses are online (and not a degree).

  • John

    Meteorology has a lot of nitches, one of which is Weather. If I question a person closely when they say, “I love meteorology,” I usually find they mean “weather.” That love was why I became a meteorologist. I found weather itself was a fascinating field of study and a vital necessity if you are planning an outdoor wedding. But meteorology includes so much more. I’m a consulting meteorologist and seldom forecast weather; but I use all the tools now available.

    The Doppler radar precipitation map on the 6 PM news is just one product of more than 75 available from NOAA. If that is your limit of “loving meteorology,” you are 1/75 of the way there. The satellite photographs shown on TV are showning you what? Clouds? Moisture? Infrared images? Sea surface temps? What does it mean? How should you use them? A true meteorologist has knowledge in many allied fields and detailed knowledge in a few specific to atmospheric phenomena.

    At parties and in general conversation when a person found out I was a “meteorologist,” the usual conversation started to me was,”What is the weather going to be this weekend?” Now it is, “Do you believe this global warming stuff?” A TV weather person can give as good an answer to the first as I; but I dread to hear the TV “weatherite” discuss global warming and the evidences for and against it.

    I would prefer a TV station have their “weather person” use the word “weather” in their title unless they have a full four-year degree in meteorology or atmoshperic science (just like in Texaws you can’t call your self an”engineer” unless you have an engineering degree). The AMS Seal for Weather Broadcasters reflects a test in just that — weather — and does not reflect expertice in all of the fields of meteorology; but I do strongly encourge all the TV weather broadcasters to apply for the AMS Seal.

  • Matt Crowther

    I have somewhat of a different take on this- it is not quite as black and white as you think. My personal situation is this: back in the stone age I was taking meteorology at Iowa State but had not yet gotten to the really “hard core” met, math and physics courses. I did, however, find out I had a knack for forecasting almost right away. Long story short, I got two jobs while in school, one at WOI TV and the other at private forecasting form Frees-Notis. After a few months, Freese-Notis offered me a full-time job as a forecaster, I quite school and took the job. In a another year I was hired at the Weather Channel, where I have been a forecaster for almost 30 years, reaching their highest level of non-management meteorologist. It has been my experience that a degree is not necessarily a requirement for understanding the basics of the science enough to be a good forecaster- the really top level math and physics really have no bearing on the nut and bolts of forecasting. but by your definition I am not a meteorologist even though I have been making a living in the field for over 30 years. This is a tougher nut to crack than just saying degree = meteorologist.

    • Anonymous

      Hey Matt, thanks for your post! That’s a great achievement…congrats! I agree that the definition of “meteorologist” has to be a combination of education and experience. It definitely isn’t clear cut as you say.

      But I think in today’s economic climate…what you did would be considered a very rare feat. I just can’t imagine the Weather Channel or other employers hiring entry level non-degreed meteorologists for operational forecasting positions in today’s world. There’s just so much competition out there…and there are now many folks that have degrees with lots of experience looking that are applying to entry level jobs. I think the Military/Air Force guys have the best chance to get in without a degree…but otherwise it’s tough. Correct me if I’m wrong?

      Thanks!

      AJ

      • Patrick Kerrin

        AJ – I have chased many a day with Matt and watched him forecast – one of the best long term forecasters out there!!

        If Matt’s not a Meteorologist NOBODY is!!!

        Good to see you willing to consider the individual on their own merit!

      • Lee Chesneau, Meteorologist

        AJ,

        The combination of both education and experience MUST be clarified: Education must be by a credited atmospheric science university whose pr-requiste courses such as math and physics, & computer science courses lead-up to the follow up necessary 200 level and up credit hours for formal physical and dynamic met courses enabling the university to confer a degree in. That education with allow one today to have a full forecasting career. I am not in agreement with Matt on this at all. Sorry no credible company would heir Matt today! In a court of law he would not last 8 seconds!
        LC

  • Bob

    me·te·or·ol·o·gist (mt–rl-jst)
    n.
    1. One who studies meteorology.
    2. One who reports and forecasts weather conditions.

  • Meteorologist.

    As a graduate of the Mississippi State University meteorology program (yes, the four year degree kind), I would argue that you have a valid point about the misuse of the title “meteorologist,” but your facts are wrong. You should have researched the curriculum of said certificate before you posted an article.

    The MAIN PAGE of the program fully states that by completing the THREE year (not two, like you said) program, you will recieve a certificate of broadcast meteorology. Nowhere on the site does it say you are getting a degree in meteorology. It says certificate every time.

    To argue another point – the only thing you said about classes is that these certificate holders do not take the same coursework as the four year degreed graduates. You argued that degreed graduates take physics and calculus and atmospheric thermodynamics, and we do. While the coursework is different and doesn’t include some things, the certificate holders do take atmospheric thermodynamics.

    If your main arguement was that of people calling themselves meteorologists that aren’t, I would fully agree with you. However, your “facts” are grossly inaccurate and shows that you are just spouting off on a personal tangent instead of reporting what your article says, the “definition” of a “real” meteorologist. If you are going to argue points against a school and a program, you need to at least take the time to research your arguements first.

    For anyone who would like to check their facts after reading this article (or to verify what I have pointed out), feel free to go to the MSU Distance Learning website, linked below.

    http://www.distance.msstate.edu/geosciences/BMP/index.html

  • Patrick Kerrin

    As yes, MSU BMP, the easy target!

    As a grad of the class of 1995, I am proud of the education I got form the program – I worked hard at it and got a lot out of it. It definitely made me a better forecaster and Storm Chaser. A friend of mine who has a PhD from a ‘Famous Meteorology School’ summed it best when we were discussing this issue a long time ago – you get out of any Met program what you put into it.

    He also thought a BS alone in Meteorology should NOT be enough to call oneself a Meteorologist!

    AJ, I think you are being unfair to label MSU BMP grads as merely ‘Weathercasters’ – I would reserve that term for someone from a Journalism program with no knowledge of weather (rip and read). There are many BMP grads who are passionate, experienced forecasters, who stay abreast of the current developments in the science.

    I also wonder how much hand analysis is going on these 4 yr programs!!! I bet there are 4 yr grads with math and physics and models up the wazoo, but who can’t forecast worth a hoot!

    I think there should be a separate certification process for “Certified Operational Forecaster” (with less emphasis on Math and more on ability and experience – so yes this would be a route for earnest MSU BMP and COD folks), and for a math/physics extensive “Certified Research Meteorologist” designation. The Operational Certification should include theory but emphasize practical forecasting exams.

    In short assess the individual not the program!

    • Anonymous

      Thanks for your comment Patrick! Well MSU labels their students as “weathercasters” on their home page. Maybe you should speak to them first :) There is hands on analysis at the major operational forecasting schools like Penn State, A&M, OU, etc. But yes most of the tools and skills you learn on the job as you are “client facing”.

      And yes there are 4 year degreed mets who cannot forecast…but you can make that analogy with every major. There are medical doctors out there that are horrible….but that doesn’t mean that some guy who takes an online course and might even be better than a licensed doctor should be allowed to be called a “doctor”. Bottom line, there should be a minimum standard for someone to call themselves a professional “meteorologist”.

      I agree that maybe there does need to be a certified operational forecaster….or perhaps anyone involved in the forecasting side that does not have an education, but experience…can call themselves a “forecaster”. Anyone can technically “forecast” the weather!

      • Patrick Kerrin

        Your Welcome AJ!

        My point re “Weathercasters” still stands – someone who completes the BMP, and continues to stay current with the science should be deemed something far more elevated than “Weathercaster”.

        I just checked their website, and they are using that term to identify the general background profiles of the students in the program (“weathercasters… …educators, private consultants, and individuals interested in weather as a hobby are also enrolled”). That is as relevant to the discussion as would say, Texas A&M stating that many of their student body are “High School Graduates” – (sorry Aggies!)

        I agree there should be standards – and again posit that there should be:

        Professional Meteorologist – with a couple of years of multi-faceted, multi-dicipline study AFTER the 4 yr BSc and then a series of Exams, and also as Roger suggested, Continuing Education compliance (yep, all the BMP haters would have some more work to do – and I would make it RIGOROUS).

        Research Meteorologist – MS minimum, Continuing Education compliance.

        Certified Forecaster – a series of long Case exams (where the goal isn’t just getting the correct forecast, but being able to explain “what is happening”, “why it is happening”, and “how will it change” – lots of hand analysis required). This is the route that the BMP, College of Dupage, and “lots of job experience but no Degree” folks could go. It would also include pre-exam course work and Continuing Education compliance.

        I would include the Certified Forecaster curriculum and testing as part of of the Professional Meteorologist certification but not as part of the Research Meteorologist designation.

        I feel these designations reflect the real world, day to day jobs (for instance only a Professional Meteorologist could officially consult or testify in law suits), and would realistically convey to the public the tested skills and abilities of each category.

  • Chris Novy

    There is no need for enforcement or licensing. The industry is self-regulating. Know-nothings calling themselves “meteorologists” are not going to get hired by NWS, FAA, NASA, or private companies where bad forecasts could result in loss of life or law suits. Conversely, brainiacs who look like high school dorks are unlikely to find work as on-air talent at Good Morning America or on The Weather Channel. Each job requires a certain skill set and each employer determines whether a particular candidate meets their needs. Certifying bodies such as NWA, AMS, and MS State serve two purposes. First they encourage candidates to improve their knowledge through study and lifelong learning. Second, certifications provide employers with a minimum benchmark to screen potential applicants. How well the material is actually comprehended varies from person to person. It’s ultimately up to each employer (not NWA, AMS, or congress) to determine whether a person actually knows his/her stuff. That pretty TV people can make $100,000+ doing the morning weather and have no formal degree should not discourage you from pursuing your degree. In the end they won’t be swimming in your pool and you won’t be swimming in theirs.

    • Anonymous

      Hey Chris, I actually like the way you wrote your post. Well said! You make some great valid points and it’s a debate that still resonates within the industry. I definitely agree with you…that each sector of meteorology has a particular candidate that meets their needs. It’s a fair argument.

      Would love to hear your thoughts on why you think Canada is issuing Professional Certifications for meteorologists and lumping TV, Aviation, and Government forecasting into one sector called “Operational Meteorology”. I think the reason they are doing this because they want to make a distinction. And they believe the public has the right to know who is a professional “meteorologist” and who is a “weather reporter” because weather is clearly making an impact on people’s lives…wherever they may be.

      Again, your post makes a lot of sense to me. I just think it’s wrong for anyone to be able to claim they are a scientist, (“meteorologist”)…where it can affect people’s lives. I think there needs to be some intervention there….but other than that I think you’re spot on.

      Thanks,

      AJ

  • Anonymous

    Hi Meteorologist…that’s awesome that you have chosen the BS degree at MSU. You have some valid points. I stand corrected and it’s a 3 year online program, not a 2 year. I will change that in my blog post and I appreciate you bringing that to my attention.

    In addition to your other points, I don’t agree and It still doesn’t change the premise of my argument. I also wouldn’t say it’s a “Gross miscalculation”. Let me explain.

    Coursework: The coursework at MSU is not even close to the rigor of a 4 year meteorology degree. That’s the point and bottom line. It’s great they offer one course…but my point remains the same. The hardest courses in Meteorology are Atmospheric dynamics…where is that in this program? And is it essential for a MSU student to take calculus before entering the broadcast meteorology program…nope! Show me where that is? Actually only Geometry and Algebra are required from what I see. It is interesting that no calculus requirement is needed before taking Thermodynamics….it really doesn’t make sense does it since there is so much calculus involved in the course?

    In fact, most grads from the BMP program are not able to get the CBM seal from AMS. They need to take extra coursework…sort of proves my point right there.

    so “Meteorologist”, by saying I have a valid point about the “misuse” of the title “meteorologist”…would you say that you agree that the graduates of the BMP program should not be called “meteorologists”. It wasn’t clear from your argument?

    Enforcement: My point in this article is really about enforcement. And it’s not against MSU even though it appears to be that way. It’s about who is allowed to call themselves a “meteorologist”. As it stands, legally anyone can claim they are a “meteorologist”. And there are lot of folks who have experience and no degree who also feel they are entitled to be called meteorologist since they have the “experience” necessary to make them a great forecaster. So my point is…there’s no standard.

    A reporter can call themselves a professional meteorologist by taking a few intro weather courses at any colllege…is that fair? Is it deceptive?

    Thanks,

    AJ

    • George

      AJ — all this is extremely interesting reading. As a current 3rd year student that has “got over the hump” by just taking (this fall) the Thermodynamics course through the online program at MSU, I must say that what you say is accurate. There was no prerequisite for me to take calculus before the coursework and while it was a challenging class, the format was already broken down from calculus to algebraic long-form, which I think they intended to be easier, but actuality was more. I think calculus is somewhat simpler. At any rate, I am leaning toward the Operational certificate they offer as the TV biz is somewhat stifled/saturated. I currently do forecasting for a private weather firm also and am trying to get my foot in the door so as I can make my passion as true full time day job. My bachelors is in English/Communications and while I did do a TV internship, I’m not sure that suits me. I network so much with other Mets on Facebook, Twitter. So, hoping for a break one of these days. For now I’m a 40 year old student pursuing what I enjoy so much – weather! If you have any advice, I’m all ears here in Buffalo, NY.

      • Anonymous

        Hi George, I really appreciate you sticking your neck out there and bringing this up to our readers. I also commend you for going after your passion later in life.

        I also think it’s great you have tried out different fields by internships. It’s a great way to know if you feel like you could be a great “fit” for the job.

        You mentioned you do forecasting for a private firm? I would do whatever it takes to get into that firm. I think that would be my focus in the beginning. Make it clear to them that you’re interested in working with them.

        Even if you’re working part time George (in the beginning)….it’s a great start. It’s very difficult to work for private forecasting firms these days without a degree and a lot of experience.

        So keep up the good fight…and thanks again for sharing insights into your journey.

        AJ

      • Anonymous

        Hi George, I really appreciate you sticking your neck out there and bringing this up to our readers. I also commend you for going after your passion later in life.

        I also think it’s great you have tried out different fields by internships. It’s a great way to know if you feel like you could be a great “fit” for the job.

        You mentioned you do forecasting for a private firm? I would do whatever it takes to get into that firm. I think that would be my focus in the beginning. Make it clear to them that you’re interested in working with them.

        Even if you’re working part time George (in the beginning)….it’s a great start. It’s very difficult to work for private forecasting firms these days without a degree and a lot of experience.

        So keep up the good fight…and thanks again for sharing insights into your journey.

        AJ

  • Roger Edwards

    AJ,

    As a longtime, professional atmospheric scientist (specializing in research and prediction of severe local storms), I agree with you. AMS “rules” only are enforceable with AMS membership, and that organization is rather toothless anyway. For real impact, I advocate taking it a step further, requiring not only the degree, but renewable legal licensing of meteorologists, without which it would be against the law to refer to oneself as such. For further reasoning on this, and to save space on your BLOG, check out this entry about this very topic that I posted back in 2005:

    http://stormeyes.org/wp/2005/02/professional-licensing-and-certification-of-meteorologists/

    ===== Roger =====

    • Anonymous

      Hi Roger…you put it so eloquently in your post! Nice work! Am curious to what types of comments you received back in ’05?I believe the licensing (you spoke of too) was tried in Texas but it got shot down quickly.

      There is still a huge debate about this very topic and unfortunately even within the meteorology community…there is no cohesion. Folks are all over the place…until we have a majority believe that it’s unfair for anyone to call themselves a “meteorologist”….I can’t see this topic going anywhere.

      Maybe the silent majority needs to speak up? :)

      AJ

      • Roger Edwards

        AJ,

        Thanks for the good words. The comments I received were overwhelmingly positive; but alas, on the side, in private–not directly to the BLOG. For some reason, few seemed to have the guts to support that position in public.

        As for “cohesion”, Maggie Thatcher once said, “Nothing is more obstinate than a fashionable consensus.” This may not be a topic suitable for mere consensus, because life-or-death safety considerations are in play. After all, before physicians and engineers were licensed, it seems they had ideas “all over the place” from those whose credentials and qualifications likewise were “all over the place”.

        ===== Roger =====

        • Anonymous

          Great point Roger!

          AJ

  • William Herin

    Ok here is my two cents. I am currently in the military working as a meteorologist. I am also enrolled at Mississippi State Univ to recieve my BS in Operational Meteorology. Like the Broadcast program this is also an on-line program. The reason why is where I am at none of the colleges has a meteorology program. Like I said, I am getting my BS degree so I am doing the required math and physics courses. So when I am done along with my military experience I will be an actuall Meteorologist even though I did it via on line courses.

    • http://www.yourweatherblog.com Dave Gorham

      Don’t forget – there’s more to being a professional meteorologist than having a degree and the ability to perform high-level math. Fully half of being a meteorologist is the ability to properly communicate your forecast to your clients, colleagues, viewers and/or listeners. Correct spelling and proper grammar are integral to a written forecast, while proper diction is required when speaking.

      • Anonymous

        Absolutely Dave….couldn’t agree with you more. Honestly, the hardcore math you won’t really need in the operational forecasting world because computer models do it all for you. The degree gives you a fundamental understanding of the atmosphere and it’s processes…and there are some schools that are more hands on than others in operational meteorology which I do talk about…but bottom line most of the skills you attain will be on the job. Still doesn’t mean that the degree is a hogwash….it’s still very important to have.

        Thanks,

        AJ

        • http://www.yourweatherblog.com Dave Gorham

          Yes, indeed. The Air Force has an extensive OJT (On the Job Training) program that officially lasts for months following school, but is almost never-ending in its nature. Still, none of the OJT addresses grammar and diction. A solid foundation in the English language (assuming the U.S.A.) cannot be overlooked.

          I remember one of the most difficult things of USAF Basic Training was, oddly, folding a T-shirt to the exact measurements specified – right down to the 1/8th on an inch. It was totally frustrating – and all over a simple T-shirt? After all of us gathered plenty of demerits, our drill instructor explained, “If you can’t fold a T-shirt to exact specifications, how will you be able to fix a jet engine?”

          It was one of those life lessons that carries over to many aspects of – well, life. In this case, it applies to grammar, punctuation, spelling, etc. For instance, if you can’t spell an “easy” word correctly, or can’t be bothered with proper sentence structure, might a client assume the same lack of care went into the forecast itself?

      • William

        I understand, I was in a rush typing that out because my class was coming from their break.

        • http://www.yourweatherblog.com Dave Gorham

          ;-)

          Lots of the under-30 group feel typos and “quick” are OK, given texting, facebook and Twitter. But it’s not OK when you’re a professional delivering a professional product.

          It’s good you know the difference.

      • candacallais

        Yes! Very important point Dave. It doesn’t much matter what someone knows if they cannot convey pertinent parts of that knowledge to someone without a background in the subject.

    • Anonymous

      Hey William, thanks for your comment! I had a quick question for you….is the online program that you are referring to called the “OMP”? Or is there another program out at MSU that I am missing?

      • William

        Yes it is the OMP program. This program also offers a certificate in Operational forecasting once completing the required “core” classes. Or if the individual wants they can go for the degree.

  • Dknollhoff

    I like the articles you post. And I like the questions you discuss. And in general I am in agreement with the majority of your posts. However, on this one, I need to chime in. I don’t think you are being too harsh. If anything, you are speaking of an ideal in relation to who is a meteorologist. But you have contradicted yourself, I think. The other day you posted on the importance of “experience” in the meteorological community in relation to operational forecasting in contrast for the need to acquire a masters or PhD to become a “qualified” for an available meteorologist position. So now within this post, you define a meteorologist by acquiring a BS in meteorology as a minimum. I know a lot of aged people wise in years that don’t have a BS in meteorology that can forecast the weather accurately or provide realistic weather predictions. Farmers for example live and die by natural processes and they may understand weather patterns as well as any degreed meteorologist. The reason why the general public does not respect meteorologists is because they know that there is a level of unpredictability about the weather. So, I don’t think having a degree alone makes or breaks a weather forecaster nor will a degree(s) in meteorology from a 4 year institution bring the level of respect from the public a meteorologist wants. I speak from experience!

    • Anonymous

      Hi there, thanks for chiming in! And I appreciate you checking out the other articles. In terms of contradicting myself…I’m not sure I agree. In the other article where I talked about the opportunity cost of going from a Bachelors to a Masters….my point was going from a BS to a Masters or PHD…not just experience without any education. As I mentioned in that artcile, I believe higher education in meteorology may not be worth the opportunity cost in today’s times. Hence, “experience+BS” is more important. Hope that clarifies things.

      Look, I know that a lot of folks can be excellent forecasters without having received a degree. But I personally wouldn’t advise today’s highschool students to just do self-study in meteorology and you should end up with an operational meteorology job? Would you? What would you tell your kids today? I think in today’s times you have to have a degree (at minimum) to score an operational meteorology job (outside of TV). That’s my personal opinion and what I’ve seen in many of the job postings today.

      There are awesome forecasters out there that got their training in the Air Force…or even through the MSU broadcast certificate program. I don’t deny it.

      And yes a lot of this is semantics. But to me, a “Meteorologist” is a real scientist…whether your’e a forecaster, or an air quality modeler, or a research atmospheric scientist. I think it just irritates a lot of people that after a 3 year online course, one can claim they have a Masters in Meteorology.

      What ever happened to ethics? But you also can’t really blame them…there’s no enforcement!

      Hence, my point is…let’s define who a meteorologist is…whether it’s a combination of experience and coursework..or whatever it is. Or maybe we need to go in the step of the Canadians (and what some folks have said in this comment thread) and make it a distinction through professional licensing? It’s why I’m interested to hear what the AMS or NWA think of all this. This conversation has been going on for years….but it never seems to go anywhere.

      I think meteorologists internally are confused too. Do I call myself a “forecaster”? Do I call myself a “meteorologist”? These terms get thrown around, but there’s no real legal definition for both of these terms. There’s never been any standard. In my opinion, I think anyone can call themselves a “forecaster”. They are forecasting the weather…anyone has the right to do that. But where do we draw the line for a “meteorologist”. I think it should be a distinction and enforced.

      Thanks,

      AJ

      • Dknollhoff

        Thank you for making the clarifications to points i misunderstood from your previous posts. My main concern of requesting a definition of a meteorologist is the notion that a pandora box is opened up which then leads to an increased amount of regulation and enforcement by who knows…the AMS…the WMO…the NWA…the meteorologist police division? Who then gets hired to regulate and enforce the definition? How many FTEs are needed? How much do you pay them? What are the costs to the licensed and defined individuals? And then law suits? And more lawyers? And then de-licensing? And then jail time? And…and…and! I feel very uncomfortable with the proposed concept of an “official” definition for a meteorologist. Is such a definition actually feasible to regulate and enforce?

        • Anonymous

          You’ve made some excellent points. That’s why we need to have this very open dialogue to see what solutions there are. And if it’s worth the “opportunity cost?”.

          In Texas, they tried to do legally define a meteorologist and it got shot down. Maybe Becky or Roger can give us more insight into why that happened.

          I looked through a couple of other science fields similar to meteorology to see how they did it as an example. Check out Hydrology. They ran into the same problem about “anyone calling themselves a hydrologist”. Pretty interesting…here’s the link:

          http://www.aihydrology.org/History_of_the_American_Institute_of_Hydrology

          In Geology, they have each state determine who is a professional Geologist and who is not by the state licensing board.

          http://www.aipg.org/Licensure/StateGeologists.html

          In Canada, they are making a distinction by having “operational meteorologists” get a “professional certification”. It is being done…now whether there are lawsuits, or jail time going on…I’m not so sure. Maybe time will tell.

          http://www.eco.ca/certification/professional-meteorologists/about/962/

          What other solutions can there be? Is licensing the only answer for valid enforcement?

      • The Weatherman

        I agree wit you aj and will bring that idea up at the AMS and NWA meetings in a few years.

        • The Weatherman

          with not wit, typing too fast.

  • candacallais

    I agree completely. A B.S. in Meteorology or Atmospheric Science is a rigorous program comparable to any of the other physical sciences (Physics, Chemistry). It is unfair to those who have completed this coursework for others who haven’t to call themselves meteorologists. It is similar to the HR Block people who prepare taxes calling themselves accountants when they have neither completed an undergraduate degree in Accounting nor sat for and passed the CPA exam.

  • Paul

    I generally agree that – in order to call oneself a “meteorologist”- one should have some type of formal training. I’d like to compare & contrast the Medical Profession: Medical Doctors go through intensive academic training, then they go through practical hands on training under the supervision of older, experienced MD’s. Then they get to ‘fly’ alone, after a board certifies them. Now, I don’t think that a meteorologist needs to have a level that’s quite THAT intense, but something is in order, I think. I am currently going through the process of becoming a CCM via the AMS – I have passed my written test and will take the oral exam in New Orleans at the AMS Meeting in January. Thus far, I’d say that the CCM process is appropriate for one to call oneself a ‘meteorologist’ (I have a B.S. in Physics and a M.S. in Atmpospheric Science, and have been an AMS member for years.). I recommend that you check that out.

    I do think that the people with military training are legit Forecasters. They are definitely not just “John Doe” off the street, calling him/herself a meteorologist. However, they haven’t had Calculus, nor calculus based Dynamics/Thermo, and while they are still capable, this knowledge is needed in many areas, especially in modelling. So, I think there needs to be tiered levels of certification. In the Federal Gov’t, there is the GS-1340, the “Meteorologist” (I am this – 1340), and GS-1341, the “Meteorological Technician” (MetTech). Typically, folks with only the military training are hired into the civil service as 1341′s. The pay scale is the same. You might think of this as the difference between a MD and a Registered Nurse. Bear in mind that I’d trust a forecast from a 1341 as much as (…if not more than…) a 1340. HOWEVER, forecasting is just one task performed by the meteorological community.

    I’d like to also point out that the Storm Spotters that are used by National Weather Service (…I’m one of those too…) get some yearly training also. When I lived in Nebraska, the Storm spotters didn’t assign you a watchpoint unless you attended the yearly training.

    So again in summary, I think that a tiered level of certification should exist. Maybe it would go like this:
    1. Storm Spotter
    - minimal training
    - like CPR certification
    2. Meteorological Technician
    - Junior College level training- would include SOME certificate programs
    - Would include Military Personnel w/ weather training
    3. Weather Forecaster
    - BS College level training with NO experience
    - Would NOT include certificate programs
    - Would include Military personnel with SIGNIFICANT experience (min. 10 yrs)
    4. Meteorologist
    - BS College level training with SOME experience (min. 5 yrs)
    - Masters+ Postgrad level training with little experience
    - Would include Military personnel that just finished BS degree
    - NO Certificates

    • Paul

      So, by way of rough (and imperfect) equivalence:
      1. Storm Spotter = CPR certification
      2. Meteorological Technician = RN
      3. Weather Forecaster = Nurse Practictioner
      4. Meteorologist = MD.

      • http://www.yourweatherblog.com Dave Gorham

        I think this is ridiculous.

        • The Weatherman

          It is not ridiculous

      • The Weatherman

        I Like that

  • http://www.yourweatherblog.com Dave Gorham

    I’d like to respond to a couple of comments and add (another) one of my own.

    First, to Paul who commented earlier today: I think you’re selling the Air Force and/or Navy forecaster short. Though the school has been restructured since I attended in the ’80s, the military forecaster is well beyond a jr. college degree and deserves to be well more then one “step” (according to your scale) above the storm spotter. Between my weather observer/tech and forecaster schools, I was in class for nearly 1 year, with weather-related classes from 6 AM to 3 PM Monday through Friday (I could tell you my thoughts regarding marching to class at 5 AM, but will save that for another of AJ’s posts at some other time ;-) ). That’s much more classroom time than perhaps you realize – we didn’t get two weeks off at Christmas, we didn’t go to Mexico for Spring Break (because we didn’t get a spring break) and we didn’t have the summer off from classes. My original class of 16 graduated 3 students on time (if a “block” was failed, students were allowed to re-take the two week section – a second failure was dismissal from the program). Our classes in atmospheric dynamics may or may not have been as in-depth as the typical 4-yr degree program, but they were designed for our intended roles as operational forecasters. Additionally, those classes were only the initial classes – there were plenty of follow-on classes and OJT. Having not taken a 4-yr degree program, I can only guess at student readiness upon graduation (although I have worked with a few…) – but the military forecaster graduates school ready to go to work as a shift working meteorologist ready for anything the Air Force or Navy can throw at them/us. We were not educated to be research scientists, nor professors, nor to move into post-graduate programs – but we are weather forecasters and we are meteorologists.

    Here’s something else: Granted, I’ve been out of the Air Force since the ’90s, but at the time the USAF weather forecasters’ school was the only advanced study (7-level) school in the Air Force. Other fields could advance their AFSC (Air Force Specialty Code; 1-9) with OJT, experience and testing, but Weather was the only field that required an additional school to qualify for 7-level. Weather was also (at one time) the only school to require a PCS (Permanent Change of Station). In other words, the school was so long, it was not considered a temporary assignment like every other school.

    I’d also like to comment on the ongoing discussion about licensing and/or certifying the meteorologist as a “true” meteorologist. I think one of the main differences between what we do and the professions that have been cited as somewhat similar-but-licensed (such as medical and engineering) is that the meteorologist’s forecast is always advisory in nature. Yes, you can argue that doctors and engineers are also advisory in nature (at times), but the meteorologist prepares the forecast so that it can be provided as useful information so that somebody ELSE can make the decision on what to do with it. We provide the information so the pilot/ship captain can make the go/no go decision; the rig operator to drill or not to drill; the city manager to decide to put the plow crew on standby for the big snow; so the corporate manager can decide when to begin preparations for the approaching hurricane or ice storm; so the TV viewer can decide to go forward with the weekend picnic. The meteorologist is not wielding the scalpel, flying the plane or building the building.

    Although perhaps this might be a “which came first – the chicken or the egg?” scenario, we can all agree that there are already plenty of NWA- and AMA-certified meteorologists making lousy forecasts. I think we’re a long way away from a public who demands certification when I meet so many people who say, “You’re a meteorologist? Wow – I wish I had a job where I could be wrong 50% of the time and still get paid!”

    It will always be up to the end user to determine the “worth” of where their weather information comes from. If a viewer cares, the viewer will research credentials of the TV meteorologist and choose what makes most sense. Yes, many TV viewers are swayed by a pretty smile and perfect hair; some by the cute little Weather Dog. Are we pushing to regulate our industry and bestow certifications to satisfy THIS viewer? Likewise in industry, it is the responsibility of the manager/pilot/captain/etc to research the various options in weather support and choose what is best for the situation.

    Will you go to a doctor solely because the doctor is licensed? Not likely. You will do your research and pick the best for your needs. As it turns out, an unlicensed Dr is typically not an option in this country. Likewise, you will not base the well being of your $50MIL aircraft and its VIPs to the local TV weatherman, no matter his or her qualifications or certificates.

    As I mentioned in an earlier post, our eventual certification (or non-certification) will be market-driven. If the casual TV viewer wants the local TV station to be staffed by degreed meteorologists (and enough fellow viewers agree) then it’s only a matter of time before the station gets a clue and provides what their audience wants (after all, it’s not about an accurate forecast but about ratings). If the ship captain decides that only a forecast prepared by the degreed meteorologist will satisfy the ship’s needs, then that is the forecast that will be purchased. Of course, with every level of certification comes an increase in the cost of every forecast.

    Is it too simple to say caveat emptor? Probably. On the other hand, until the public and industry wise up by CARING about who provides their forecast, we’re left with a complicated situation (ripe with debate and argument within our own ranks) that only muddies our own waters. I am curious, however: Who ultimately decided to license physicians? Did it come from within and then “forced” upon the public? Or was it demanded by the public? I can guess, but…Wikipedia here I come!

    (Is it obvious it’s a slow day in the office today?)

  • Kbrandt

    This is actually dangerous ground and you’re opening a real can of worms. If one advocates for licensing of meteorologists then you’d better be prepared to accept litigation and malpractice insurance expenditures because as surely as the sky is blue a licensed meteorologist will find himself under fire by a corporate attorney should a private organization take his forecast as gospel and act upon it only to endure the economic calamity that a busted forecast could create. Set aside your pride and let your degree from Penn State or Florida or OU do the talking. In the long run you’ll be glad you did.

  • Joe Bledsoe

    I have always assumed that the talking head on the screen was just that, and that the real weathermen and women were behind the scenes doing the crunching for them. Now I know it for sure.

  • Linusette

    I agree with you to an extent. But before you start blogging about something you might want to get all your facts straight first. The online Mississippi State program was originally designed and put into place for military personnel only. To train the military while they are at sea on ships etc. It has only been the last year or so that they have opened it up to civilians. Another complaint that I have is what about the folks that get a bachelor’s of science in something and deside to get a master’s in Meterology. They more than likely have taken said physics and calculus. Just a thought.

    • Anonymous

      Hi Linusette, I think you may be confused. I am talking about the “online broadcast meteorology certificate”, not the online “operational meteorology certificate”. So you may want to check out both programs before telling me to get my facts straight :)

      I don’t really understand your second complaint. Please clarify.

  • Bradfordfields81

    I agree 1000% on this! I am in college right now attending on a MET degree. This is not a walk in the park becoming a MET. I am good at it but no way I am a MET until I finish school. The ones who credit themselves as a MET, ” boo who on you”. Yes that day will come when I become a real MET and that is something to be truly proud of. PS: Love the article.

  • Patrick Kerrin

    And of course James Spann – who has the MSc BMP Certificate – should not be called a Meteorologist, oh wait,

    …maybe Diane Sawyer shouldn’t be called a journalist.

    Yes that’s more like it – and “Chief Meteorologist” is a wholly accurate description when it come to James!

  • Millerss1

    You should know that beginning in the fall of 2010 MSU created a Masters degree program that is entirely online for those who have a background in the physical sciences, but did not attain an undergraduate degree in meteorology. The Applied Meteorology Program awards an M.S. degree in Geosciences and includes much of the course work required to become a full fledged meteorologist as defined by the NWS requirements for those that may need to “fill in the gaps”. The program seems much more credible than the “watered down” certificate you cite in your post.

  • Kevin Collins

    Justified YES, harsh NO.
    Speaking as a person with both Bachelor of Science Degrees in Meteorology and Electrical Engineering, the term is way over used and insults those who worked for their degree. The true MET is behind the scenes correctly interpreting what they see and not just a pretty face or nice personality.

    More jobs for the private sector should be created.

    Kevin

  • dusty

    I have to disagree because I know plenty of people that went to MSU and they are great Weather Broadcasters, and know there stuff (my local meteorologist) . I think its great that MSU offers this online being in the Coast Guard and loving the weather this helps me out a lot since Im not able to go to campus due to my JOB, I am actually able to get my degree through them. I also have seen other weather men/woman that have gotten there Meteorlogy degree through other colleges that are very unprofessional. I just think it depends on how you use it I guess does not matter what school you go to and does not matter the degree as long as you are good at the job. Just because someone got a degree from a different college does not mean that they are better or knows more then someone that went to MSU.
    But anyways I really do like your website because it does help people out that want to get there degree through Meteorology Keep up the good work and have a great day :)

  • Anonymous

    Fair enough Dusty. I think my point was more about having a “definition” of what a meteorologist is. I think there are some great forecasters too that have graduated from MSU…but I think we need to draw the line somewhere. If someone likes the weather and did self-study and says he or she’s a meteorologist….is that acceptable?

    That’s really my point. Let’s take the term “meteorologist” seriously.

    Otherwise, thanks for the kind words about the blog.

    Best,

    AJ

  • Bobby

    AJ:

    I am new too your articles and your web site don,t get me wrong on the MSU Program its great program and one of the bests programs in the country.They offer a great chance for someone who lives many miles from a university that offers a degree in Meteorology and can,t moved or quite their job to go.I live close too Texas Tech they have a great program in wind energy and atmospheric sciences maybe one day I will be able to attend these programs.Thank you for your articles and a new fan

  • Proud Mississippian

    I am currently in the Mississippi State University Operational Meteorology Program (On Campus) entering my junior year. I just wanted to clerify that Mississippi State is a great place to develop a career in Meteorology. I have or am taking the physics, chemistry, thermodynamics, computer programing, ect….,and even minoring in mathematics. Yes Mississippi State does offer an online certificate in broadcast meteorology but that is not the fault of the university. There making money off the people that think they have become a “Meteorologist”. The AMS or NWA should clerify what a meteorologist is and tell the University to change. Until then MSU will continue to run there university as a business (which is exactly what a university is). Personally I would never take an online meteorology class or even think a certificate would be a way to start a career. MSU is simply making money like any other business. It is just aggravating to me and my fellow students to get put down because we attend MSU.

    • http://www.yourweatherblog.com/ Dave Gorham

      I posted a comment a few months ago on this thread relating to how math and physics are only part of a successful career in meteorology. The other part is communication – including correct grammar, spelling and punctuation. I’m sorry to get personal on this thread, but I’m in shock that 3rd year student in college can mistake “there” for “their” – not once, but twice. If we’re going to define what a meteorologist is, then we have to consider the whole package – not just the ability to pass thermodynamics.

      And “Proud Mississippian” is not the only one on this thread making such basic mistakes. Think about this: You finish your degree, create your résumé (please have it professionally spellchecked) and land your dream job. You’re the meteorologist doing mornings and likely weekends, as well. You’re first duty of the day is not stepping in front of the camera and talking, it’s updating the web page (which requires typing and spelling). You may also have a link to the local newspaper and radio station so that your forecast cross-feeds to other sources (and a wider audience).

      Imagine if your updates have multiple spelling and grammar errors. Do you think you’ll earn credibility amongst your audience? Do you think your producer or the station management will look the other way because you’re a double major? What if you’re typing a “crawl” indicating severe weather and you make spelling errors? Might your audience deduct that if you don’t know the difference between “there” and “their,” then perhaps you can’t be counted on for more complicated matters like a tornado warning. Your “minor” spelling errors reflect not only upon yourself but upon your station and your employers. You’re not the sports guy or the pretty talking head at the news desk. You’re the scientist. You’re the go-to guy for earthquakes, volcanoes, astronomy, tree pollen – and the forecast. You’re the SMART one.

      You could say, Proud Mississippian, that you were just typing a quick reply on an obscure blog thread (no offence, AJ) and you were hurrying between classes. But that’s not the point. What about when you’re wall-to-wall covering a severe outbreak – you have graphics to update, crawls to type, texts to send, updates to Facebook? Is that the time to be serious about spelling? No – it’s too late by then. Proper spelling and grammar has to be ingrained; it has to be right every time so that you know it will be right when you don’t have time to think about it (like when a tornado is leveling half the city where you’re the on-air meteorologist).

      I’ll admit I’m likely older than most on this thread. I grew up before Smart Phones, predictive text and even spellcheckers. Hell, I was using computers before Windows. I can’t hold you responsible for all the technology that has made basic spelling skills (almost) passé. However, you’re not about to begin your career by climbing into the cab of a truck or by walking into an X-ray lab or a kitchen. You’re beginning a career as not only a meteorologist, but as a communicator, perhaps even the Great Communicator. You’re moving into a position that is considered to be one of the most trusted, educated and relied upon in the community. But if you don’t know the difference between “there,” “they’re” and “their,” or “which” and “witch,” or “capital” and “capitol,” or homonym, synonym and homophone, or when to use “good” and when to use “well,” then your career is off to a very rough beginning, indeed.

      Lastly, let me say one more thing: If it was easy, anyone could do it. If we could all spell, if we could all do math, if we could all talk perfectly in front of a camera, a microphone or an audience, if we were all loveable and trustworthy, then everybody would be a meteorologist. Fortunately for us, that’s not the case.

      • Dave Gorham

        He who lives in a glass house, right? I should add the ability to know the difference between “you’re” and “your.” Hey – AJ, can you add the ability to EDIT these responses? ;-)

        • Anonymous

          Only I get to edit buddy ;)

      • Proud Mississippian

        Wow you got me Dave…..

        1- You are right my post did have bad grammar.
        2- Remember Dave this is a blog (meaning I am not getting paid to write on here)
        3- You went out of your way to correct my grammar (shows what kind of person you are)
        4- I actually have great communication skills ( I will explain why when you reach #10)
        5- I have no desire to be on Television (meaning I would rather sale insurance)
        6- Hell your right Dave looks like I will never be successful because I don’t spend my time correcting myself on this blog.
        7- Now if my job was updating weather discussions, blogging, ect…. I would correct it (because its my JOB)
        8- How many mistakes have I made now (I see a couple!?!?!?!)
        9- Now Dave you probably are a great person and had some great jobs but seriously I have not even graduated college yet. ( So I am not a “Meteorologist”)
        10- If you still think I am and ignorant Proud Mississippian.. How about you come to the 2013 AMS conference (Austin, TX) and listen to me speak on my PAPER (communication skills!?!?!??!!)…… The increasing concern of United State’s water allocation laws (due to the global climate fluctuation and population expansion) requires a well-developed strategy to improve management and distribution of states water. (in a nutshell)

        - Dave Gorham “Internet Grammar Policeman”

    • Anonymous

      Hey Proud Mississippian….sorry for the delay here in responding. But yes I would definitely agree with you. And that’s why I mentioned in my post that it is not the fault of MS State…they are catering to a niche market. My only point is that folks like you who are getting a 4 year degree should be called a “meteorologist” after you graduate…not someone who gets a certificate and doesn’t take the same coursework.

      Some people have made the argument it’s not about math and thermodynamics that define who a meteorologist is. And that can surely be the case. But where do we draw the line? Right now, anyone can legally call themselves a meteorologist. It’s quite a shame, in my opinion.

      Best,

      AJ

  • Shawn

    I’m an active duty airman. i’ve been through 12 months of military classroom metorology instruction, and have been forecasting operationaly for 3 years. After I complete Mississippi state’s Operational Meterology Degree(which is accredited) am I not considered a meterologist? Explain.

    • Anonymous

      Hey Shawn, first of all thanks for your service to our country. You bring up a great question. It’s the main premise of my article. I think it’s important to have a distinction of who can call themselves a meteorologist..and who can’t.

      For example…if I were to turn this around and ask the following question…”hey i hear your friend likes to forecast the weather for fun…is he considered a meteorologist?” (This friend has no weather experience/education whatsoever). What would you say? As of right now…legally your friend could say “yes” and call himself a meteorologist. So…where do we draw the line?

      Also, to be honest, I’m not sure exactly what the 12 months of military classroom meteorology entails? Maybe you can explain further?

      Now in regards to the “Op Met Degree”…are you talking about the OPM distance learning program at MS State? From what I understand…this is not a “degree”…I understand that you receive certain number of units that transfer to a bachelor’s degree at MS state. Please correct me if I’m wrong?

      Here’s the NWS requirements to enter their organization as a “meteorologist”….http://www.opm.gov/qualifications/standards/IORs/gs1300/1340.htm

      Do you qualify?

      • GuestMet

        “from what i understand” AJ, MSU has two options. 1 get the degree 2 get the certificate. both can be done online. the OPM program is basically a core set of courses for meteorology. if you go for the degree there are more requirements, but it is in fact a degree program if you opt to take that route. i’ve graduated from that program years ago. that’s how i can correct you. i also have better grades than most students. i’ve gone to more than one meteorology school and have more than one degree. this is how i can speak on these details. there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about the degree vs certificate program. they offer both. yes, i qualify for opm 1340 series you posted above. ***did you know that you can become qualified for opm 1340 by completing Dynamics I/II from MSU online if you have the rest of the core? yes, i said online. by the way i don’t have the certificate, i have the degree. my point is distance learning is becoming the future route to a higher education. even the nws is doing this as much of their training is online! but you wouldn’t know that if you’ve never worked for them before or did your research.

        ***we can’t make everyone happy and it just seems arrogant to demand licensing just because you don’t want someone else being called something. let me tell you from experience licensing involves BIG GOVERNMENT bureaucracy litigation unnecessary steps bloated fees and corruption… are you ready for that? do you want to bring that into the field of meteorology AJ? you want it that bad?

  • GuestMet

    MS State does offer a MS degree with emphasis in Applied Meteorology. If the person completed the ENTIRE MS degree, then yes, they can list MS on their Resume. The same goes for the BS degree in Geoscience. There is a difference between degree and certificate. I think there is a lot of jelousy about the success of MSSTATE people getting broadcast jobs versus some other traditional on campus meteorology degree programs. The people who complete Dynamics I/II which is calculus based and offered online, meet the requirements of the OPM (US Government for NWS employment). The people who have the full degree in let’s say geoscience, physics, meteorology, atmospheric science, etc (as the AMS has issued statements about) can be referred to/are called meteorologists. The people with actual degrees (not necessarily BS in Meteorology only), but BS or MS in related field as the AMS states here http://www.ametsoc.org/pubs/careers.html are indeed meteorologists. I can see this concern about a simple certificate, but don’t forget that MSSTATE offers the full degrees and most of the people who graduate from their have the full degree and thus according to the AMS are meteorologists. I’m not sure why AJ is so upset over this when there are other things to be concerned with in life. Heck, I’m upset that every single news anchor is an expert on every single subject that comes up or news story. Most only have a BA in communications if anything at all! That’s something to be upset over! http://www.ametsoc.org/pubs/careers.html under “What is a meteorologist” explains this to the T. I’ve seen people with degrees in Physics, etc be called meteorologist and they never completed even a BS degree in Meteorology. I’ve noticed a few people angry about MSSTATE but the funny thing is they think it’s nothing more than a certificate program when most of the people that get jobs have the full degree so what is the OP complaining about? One other thing, this CBM idea is really a money making tactic (don’t forget the renewal fee!). I’ve dropped mine as soon as I left television and haven’t missed it one bit.

    • GuestMet

      there! whoops. I also should add that I’ve never heard of anyone claiming a MS degree that simply had a certificate. And what business would hire such a person that had a certificate and not an actual degree. Shouldn’t you be more angry with the business for hiring? Nothing personal but why would a business hire someone with a certificate that you say hasn’t done the rigorous work you’ve done. Wouldn’t that make you more qualified? So why wouldn’t you get the job. If you think it’s because of looks then why waste your time getting angry over it or wanting someone to re-define a term just because you’re not happy with it. Does that not come off sounding arrogant to you?

      • GuestMet

        one other huge point. let’s talk about the “grades” these so called calculus people made in dynamics. i’ve seen the statistics because i’ve been to multiple colleges, people that get the BS degree in Meteorology usually make low grades in dynamics and synoptic. in fact many just barely pass. so why should that even count? many AMS CBM holders that have 12 hours of calculus based meteorology can’t even do much more than just regurgitate nws forecast data and simply make some graphics with happy faces showing the temperature for the next 7 days. how is that a meteorologist? the fact is unless you are doing research or computer programming making the actual weather models, calculus is NOT used. when is the last time al roker used calculus? when is the last time even a nws warning coordinator used calculus to issue a tornado warning? when is the last time AJ used calculus? you say its needed to understand the model? NO, understanding the equation is necessary to understanding the model.

        i’ll give you sort of a similar yet smaller scale situation about AJ being angry over who gets to be called what….. years ago i studied hard and took the FCC tests earning my advanced class ham radio license. i was one of the youngest people in the world to pass it at the time. i did all the question pools, electronics calculations, etc, even 25 wpm morse code… i passed it all and guess what happened! a few years later th older guys complained to the fcc and arrl (lobby club) that the requirements for the advanced license class were “too hard” so they dropped a whole bunch of requirements even the morse code! how do you think i felt after doing all the hard work? now they phased out the entire license class because it was too hard. yet these guys who take the ham radio test now it’s such a synch its a joke. there’s no challenge to it anymore. at the end of the day they are called ham radio operator’s too…. so should i be upset like you and make a blog post and say they can’t be called ham radio operators because they didn’t put the effort i did into it. or should i just get over it and move on, like i’ve done?

        the funny part, even the MSU certificate program is pretty much most of the courses and topics you would get at any other on campus meteorology school. how do i know this? i’ve been both on campus and off at multiple colleges. it’s the same material basically. there are some exceptions like the certificate program is not calculus based. now the degree program sort of is because you will need the physics, chemistry, and some calculus for it anyways. i guess i don’t have a problem with the certificate program, although i would like to see weathercaster used if you only have a certificate, but if you have a degree in say geoscience, physics, atmo science, meteorology, etc, then you should be able to call yourself a meteorologist. but seriously, i know people that have a BS degree in meteorology from OU and i wouldn’t hire them for anything. here’s what i’m looking for, someone with a degree, with good grades, with passion, maybe experience, etc. i don’t care if that person had differential equations or not, although maybe we can agree that would be a plus?

        • Dfvdcdccddccde

          I agree with most of what you said. Meteorologists can have a degree in Atmospheric Science, Meteorology, Geoscience, Physics, etc. In fact, you will find many people sick and tired of the money game and overblown reputation of the AMS. Calculus is not part of operational meteorology. It is in fact only part of research and development and even then limited. This AJ that only has a BS degree wouldn’t know though because he has never earned a higher degree. I love this ranting about MSU. Sounds like Mississippi State University has some pretty successful smart people coming out. Granted they need to tighten their requirements up a bit, but they have made progress. I wonder why AJ is so mad? Did he drop out of MSU or something?

  • GuestMet

    one last thought, be careful what you wish for. how would you like $10,000 dollar initial certification fee, with a $2000 dollar per year renewal fee, and requirement to hold a $4,000+ dollar per year liability insurance coverage fee (more likely 10 grand or more), and requirement that you have a MS degree or higher before you can be called a meteorologist. accidentally calling yourself a meteorologist we could propose a 50,000 dollar fine, prison for life, worse? it really sounds like AJ doesn’t understand differential background of meteorologists. this getting stuck on MSSTATE certificate program is just a broken record. 1. so what and 2. how about you remark about the rest of MSSTATE meteorology programs/degrees that have calculus, etc? Sounds like you just have something against MSU. I have to applaud you at the amount of effort you’re putting into this non issue.

  • GuestMet

    by the way, AJ’s article here is very misleading, inadequate, inaccurate information about Mississippi State University meteorology programs. 1. the MSSTATE certificate is not simply “a course.” 2. MSSTATE admissions have the same requirements as most colleges. 3. all MSSTATE courses and degrees are fully accredited and transferable. 4. there are options to get the degree not just certificate. 5. the material is the same as any other school. 6. MSSTATE has a good reputation and well educated staff comparable to any other meteorology school. 7. MSSTATE has a success rate. 8. most people that graduate from MSSTATE with the degree in geoscience qualify for OPM 1340 even if they did the degree online! 9. Distance learning is the trend. Get with the times and out of the 1950′s! 10. you’re never going to make everyone happy so don’t try. 11. if you’re going to complain about some program at least have your facts straight. 12. “And it’s fine (although not recommended)” is a statement AJ made up himself. I recommend people only graduate from MIT, but is that realistic? NOPE. Just plain arrogant. Many people that get the full degree either online or on-campus at MSSTATE get jobs in TV, at National Weather Service Offices, etc. Your remark “not recommended” is blatantly false misinformation. In fact you contradict yourself in one sentence “it’s fine… although not recommended”…. Seriously AJ get your facts straight. It really sounds like you a jealous of Mississippi State University meteorologists success rates.

    • Questionforyouall

      Nearly every major university offers distance learning online degrees. It’s common and that is not the problem. The biggest problem I think we all agree on here is the Mississippi State University broadcast meteorology certificate or operational meteorology certificate program. 1. it is NOT a degree. 2. it does NOT make you a meteorologist. 3. they need to stop the false advertisement and maybe be held liable for misleading people. No problem with an actual degree where people actually get a BS in maybe Meteorology or whatever Geoscience, but still you need some basic calculus, physics, and so forth. If you got the BS degree fine, but the certificate is a total joke. Can we all agree on that?

      How about we make a requirement that a meteorologist is a person with at least a B.S. degree in meteorology, atmospheric science, or some closely related science that involves at least some calculus, statistics, physics, computer science, and baseline of meteorology courses? That means to be a meteorologist you need at least the B.S. not just some certificate. Licensing is a bad idea but this certificate program is not worth the cost of the paper it’s printed on.

  • KoogermOU2

    AJ you must be a moron. you keep posting OPM 1340 and AMS requirements. do you not realize that that is for employment with ONE specific government branch and ONE specific atmospheric science “club.” The real definition of a meteorologist is a person with specialized atmospheric science training. If you have ever completed a Master or PhD you would probably learn what a meteorologist is and realize that some meteorologists don’t even have a degree in meteorology. In fact, some of the top meteorology professors (that teach at schools) have degrees in Physics, Geosicence, etc. You must just have a BS degree because your viewpoint is extremely limited. You basically want your own definition of what a meteorologist is because you don’t want to recognize that there are others without a degree that are just as good and or experienced as you are. I didn’t know about this rant blog you have here until someone pointed it out to me. But AJ whoever you are, you sound like a big baby. Grow up and get a life.

  • Jeffcorvis2

    I’m from FSU and can absolutely say that AMS or 1340 has nothing to do with the definition of meteorologist. Many professors have a degree in various things other than meteorology. They are still meteorologists because of many related courses and or experience. The AMS is a club and basically exists to make money. They have their own requirements. The government has their own requirements. Every company has their own requirements. It sounds like the guy in the blog doesn’t really understand what a meteorologist is. I can understand being upset one guy that didn’t do as much calculus gets a job. But don’t be that narrow minded. I want my own definition of everything but that is not realistic.

    • Questionforyouall

      What about the people that get and actual online BS or MS degree from Mississippi State University that have completed calculus, physics, and dynamics 1/2, and meet OPM 1340? Are they not meteorologists? What is this problem with MSU? Can we all agree that the major problem is specifically the Mississippi State University broadcast meteorology certificate program? Can we all agree that the MSU certificate doesn’t make you a meteorologist and is our biggest complaint? Online degrees are common place now with nearly every major university offering distance learning degrees with the same syllabus, general requirements, and so forth.

    • B.C.

      No, you’re being misleading. http://www.met.fsu.edu/index.pl/personnel/faculty – While some may have an undergraduate degree in something other than meteorology (ex. math, physics), they all have a met degree somewhere in their C.V.’s. You don’t get hired as a professor at FSU if you don’t have a PhD in meteorology, period.

  • Vorticity

    The discussion is very US-centric, and a lot of this is not relevant overseas. The practice of referring to TV weather presenters as “meteorologists” regardless of their actual qualifications I think may be restricted only to the US.
    With regard to the definition of a meteorologist, there is a lot of talk about the AMS here but little on the WMO. I would have thought the latter trumps the former. They have laid it all out in a rather long and somewhat bloated PDF:
    http://www.wmo.int/pages/prog/dra/etrp/documents/WMO258.pdf

    They scrapped the old Class I – IV system. Now a Class I Meteorologist is just called a Meteorologist.

    So, in all aspects, surely a person should only be referred to as a Meteorologist if they hold a certificate that defines them as much as sanctioned by the WMO. Does the WMO have the power, reach or desire to accredit all institutions, companies and agencies with their seal of approval? Can the WMO vet all of the above (including individual courses within an institution)? Probably not.
    Enforcement would be tricky. Imagine someone in their career incorrectly is referred to as a Meteorologist. Do you punish the institution, the individual or the employer?

    The explosion of the internet has probably led to more “forecasters” existing now than in the past. It seems that if they are noisy enough then qualifications, understanding of the fundamentals and genuine forecasting experience do not matter.
    This may be causing problems, now and in the future. If the public perceive that both a “forecaster” and a “meteorologist” can create forecasts and be referred to as an authority in the news media, then we have reached a stage where the distinction between the two has already been lost. And if that’s happened, then no amount of frantic backpaddling will stop the “creep” in terminology.

  • wm

    Before you decide to police weathercasters, might be a better idea to discern who can be a storm chaser. There are a lot of storm chasers clogging the roads and no one from the meteorology community seem to care about this dangerous fact. Storm chasers should be limited to degree meteorologists or meteorology students. Anymore it seems everyone wants to be a storm chaser but they have no meteorology education. Make it illegal to chase storms unless you are a meteorology student or have the atmospheric degree.